The P15 is Coming to Save the Less Fortunate: McLaren Themselves

"Tim (Fractal Footwork)" (fractalfootwork) 01/25/2014 at 09:30 • Filed to: McLaren P15, Economics, McLaren, P13, P15, 12C, P1, AutoCar, OppositeLock

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The forthcoming McLaren P15 will slip into the stream between the generically fast McLaren 12C and the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , utilizing the same basic engine, chassis, and styling components that make McLaren the only supercar manufacturer able to truly challenge the likes of Maranello since Lamborghini.

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Still to undercut the supercar-bred speed that McLaren currently produces, the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and cheaper still, opting to take on the 911-owned market instead of endlessly chasing red. Remembering that McLaren doesn't have the luxury of being owned by a Fiat or a Volkswagen, as do Ferrari and Lamborghini, the British automaker must continue to meet evermore rigorous emission standards, placing their constant use of twin-turbocharging in a more tolerant light; this helps explain why they have opted to strap them to an already potent V8 in the upcoming P13.

McLaren have taken the intelligent route by effectively creating 4 separate models from one. The Woking firm will only share the carbon monocoque chassis and the base V8 engine (and possibly some other small miscellaneous parts), which were both developed for the 12C. This asset sharing ensures cheaper research and development costs for a new model as a whole, or better yet, a transfer of development costs from the main components to crazy-inbred-supercar-gadgetry; considering the !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , probably the latter gadgetry.

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recent picture of the McLaren headquarters in Woking, UK. The building on the left was recently build to accommodate the british automaker's increase in supercar production.

AutoCar's inside sources have revealed some early details surrounding the purported P13 and P15 models:

Pricing for the two models will also differ wildly, with the P15 likely to go on sale for around £400,000. By comparison, McLaren is pitching its P13 at a price point of £120,000.

With McLaren already planning a !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and the P1 racing with LaFerrari, the question arises of what Ferrari model they were targeting as a competitor for the P15; perhaps none.

The 12c sealed out the chassis and components, the P1 stormed the hearts of the enthusiast (elevating the brand), the P13 will bring the ideas back to earth, and the P15 will capture the profits.

The McLaren strategy is obviously more complicated than described above, and I'm not trying to suggest that none of the other models make money, but in a nutshell this is our view of the birth of a true supercar corporation that can challenge Ferrari, and perhaps move on to challenge the global market as a just a plain and simple car brand.

[ sketch and quote from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ]

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 10:20

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This is awesome, but this one needs a manual transmission more than the 12C, which could have had one itself. With a cheaper car, performance should take a backseat to the driving experience, as sacrifices will definitely have to be made in the "my car is faster than yours" category.

RW53104 > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:24

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Perhaps one day they will produce an even more affordable Cayman fighter... that would be exciting.

carsandmusic > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:29

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Well, if the P1 is fighting the LaFerrari and the MP12 is fighting the 458 wouldn't the P15 be a competitor for the F12? Or am I missing something?

Stefan25 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 01/25/2014 at 12:30

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Why? it would no doubt make it slower, and I understand it's great for driver purity. but with electronic steering, tonnes of sound deadening, there's just no need for a manual transmission when you're already so disconnected from the driving experience. Modern cars should be built purely to perform as well as possible as easily as possible. So we with a proper love for cars, can drive the old ones, who were designed for the experience not the speed.

jubaru > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:34

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What's up with these names? I mean in P13 and P15 where McLaren think they're going to be finishing in this coming season? Or was that where they had been finishing last season?

thetedderbear > carsandmusic 01/25/2014 at 12:35

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Don't look to Ferrari for a direct competitor, this P15 sounds like it will do battle with the Aventador. In a way the F12 and the Aventador are competitors, but they are different styles of car. The P15, which will surely be mid engine, sounds like it will be McLaren's response to the big V12 Lambo.

squelchuk > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:36

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" With McLaren already planning a 458 Speciale competitor and the P1 racing with LaFerrari, the question arises of what Ferrari model they were targeting as a competitor for the P15; perhaps none. "

They're targeting the 911 Turbo and TurboS

Flat Six > carsandmusic 01/25/2014 at 12:39

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Maybe in terms of HP or $, but the F12 is more of a GT, so not really.

ColMussstard > squelchuk 01/25/2014 at 12:42

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For Aventador money? I doubt it

ColMussstard > squelchuk 01/25/2014 at 12:42

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For Aventador money? I doubt it

Turd-Polisher > RW53104 01/25/2014 at 12:44

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... seems like watering down the brand if they did that.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > jubaru 01/25/2014 at 12:45

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These are code names

bee1000 > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:45

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Sounds like McLaren is following the Aston Martin scheme of making several models that look the same but have wildly different prices. They both also have model names that only the most fanatic of fan boys will ever be able to keep straight.

EOJ1 > RW53104 01/25/2014 at 12:48

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Agreed, an affordable performance car from McLaren would be very interesting... but I just hope that they remain their own company.

dekone > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 12:55

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I thought McLaren were supposed be coming out with a reasonable cost 911 fighter? Of the 7000 or so 911's sold each year less than 500 are the max spec cars that are going to carry a >$200,000 price tag. A very well optioned Turbo S is still going to cost less than a base model P13? If a 12c is $240,000 it would seem silly to introduce a new car at $200,000. They need something slotting in around the $120k mark

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 13:03

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So I guess their next F1 car will be named the P-NIS?

carsandmusic > thetedderbear 01/25/2014 at 13:03

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Oh yeah, you are obviously right the direct competitor would be the Aventador. Only by price or power it would compete against the F12. Thanks for making me see the obvious ;)

quattrofl > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 13:09

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P15 = Future Enzo/Aventador competitor.

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > quattrofl 01/25/2014 at 13:12

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The LaFerrari is the 'future Enzo', but as for the Aventador, yeah...

Hammerfrog > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 13:16

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I feel like two new models in effectively the same segment as the 12c could seriously complicate their lineup. Think Aston Martin.

RW53104 > EOJ1 01/25/2014 at 13:21

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Agreed. But if they are looking into mass-production (relatively speaking) to help offset development costs, an even cheaper, higher-volume model seems to be the next logical step.

Mailbox Cancer > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 13:22

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All I ask is that they look completely different. The differences between the 12C and P1 are perfect despite using essentially the same chassis. Let's keep that going and let the designers have a creative hey day within the parameters of the canvas.

RW53104 > Turd-Polisher 01/25/2014 at 13:24

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I think that argument could be applied to many companies producing cars with monstrous capabilities. I think McLaren would still hold a reputational edge based on the mere fact that, like this article states, they are not owned by a mega-producing parent company. I would see it more as adding kindling (small, yet plentiful), not water, to keep the fire going (I understand I mixed metaphors a bit here).

Stradale > dekone 01/25/2014 at 13:40

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At the current conversion rates the P13 will be starting at $164,000 which is right between the Turbo and Turbo S. The P15 however is going to be $547,000 which does not make any sense to me as the Aventador and F12 will both be cheaper.

Stradale > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 13:41

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What is with the price of the P15? At current conversion rates that like $547,000, much more expensive that the Aventador or F12.

Stradale > squelchuk 01/25/2014 at 13:46

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Not at $547,000.

Pitchblende > dekone 01/25/2014 at 13:49

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I doubt there will be an 'affordable' McLaren at least in the foreseeable, they do not have the capability to produce in numbers (I believe their max output is supposed to be 7000 cars per year) and so are trading on exclusivity and performance.

EOJ1 > RW53104 01/25/2014 at 13:50

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Undoubtedly, high quality standards should always be the priority of the company. As long as they continue to progress as they have, things should turn out well.

featherlite > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 14:00

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One second... one second.... ok....flame suit on.

Aren't the boys in Woking just giving us "same sausage, different lengths" here? No offense to McLaren, while their products are impressive, using the same chassis and same 3.8 L v8 in everything (probably gearbox too)? Difference between models being body work, more/less boost, maybe an electric motor and price? I fully understand the spreading R&D/development cost thing... but across 4 models this seems a bit... I don't know... "cheap"... kinda sorta maybe?
Can I assume then that the P13 will be the one to buy? Pick it up for less and turn up the boost? I mean you are still getting that great chassis and engine, no? Unless of course they deliberately make it worse than the 12C; like Porsche constantly crippling the Cayman because of the 911. Isn't that a nice thought, a car costing over $100k being deliberately made worse than its more expensive sibling, despite sharing the same crucial components. At least in the case of Porsche we can say it has a different chassis, different engine, etc.

I honestly don't believe McLaren takes a loss on any of its models. It just doesn't make economic sense when you are the new kid on the block and don't have the backing of a bigger company. Everything you sell must make a profit, maybe not much profit, but a profit nonetheless. "Market penetration" pricing strategies in this segment will only hurt you in the long run.

Ok, flame away.

NavyMercedes > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 14:04

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Upcoming model names:

P3N15
80085
07734 (must be read upside-down, on a calculator screen)

Benjinator12 > dekone 01/25/2014 at 14:25

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This article is about the rumored P15, a higher-spec model.

The P13 is still happening, and it will still be around $120k.

The lineup looks like this: P13->12C->P15->P1
It's too complicated if you ask me and I don't really see the point of the P15 when they could make more money with the P13 and just make go-faster versions of the 12C.

jimjamjimmy > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 14:41

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can't stop myself thinking that in 20 years time Mclaren might end up being the real life Weyland Yutani or the company that makes robots in I-robot!! I am already saving up for my Mclaren built Lance Henriksen robot!

squelchuk > Stradale 01/25/2014 at 14:49

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Bugger, you're right. That's the P13



There's probably a market for the P15 now that the P1 and the *snigger* La Ferrari are sold out. What are you alternatives? Pay £680-720k for a 918 - why, when you've got a P1 - or 'downgrade' to an Aventador, Vanquish or F12, or wait to see what Bugatti come up with to replace the Veyron now that they've confirmed the Galibier is DOA

Stradale > squelchuk 01/25/2014 at 14:55

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Yea I don't really know what the P15 is going to compete with at that price.

thetedderbear > carsandmusic 01/25/2014 at 14:56

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Welcome! I'm preferential to the bull so I tend to think of them first.

b33g33 > Turd-Polisher 01/25/2014 at 15:00

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The last thing the Cayman has done is dilute the brand.

I personally know 2 people who became die-hard Porsche fans because they bought a base Cayman.

carsandmusic > thetedderbear 01/25/2014 at 15:12

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They make really cool cars! Sad to see the manual gone from all their offerings - sadly you can't argue against the numbers. :(

dekone > Stradale 01/25/2014 at 16:07

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You're converting the wrong currency...the P13 is expected to be 120,000 £ not € (that's pounds not euro's). At today's exchange (1 GBP = 1.65 USD) the P13 will start at $198,000 USD

dekone > Pitchblende 01/25/2014 at 16:16

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Porsche sold less than 7,000 911's last year...and that includes every version of the 911....Carrera, Cab, Turbo, GT3, etc.

While I agree with your numbers on McLaren's total production capacity (they turned out 1,500 in 2012 with some headroom and the new production center adds another 4,500 unit per year capacity) they aren't going to get even remotely close to max output unless they introduce a sub-$150,000 model. The global market for >$200,000 supercars just isn't that large and they are going up against well established brands that have much better balance sheets than Mclaren. Significant volume isn't going to materialize when the cheapest driveaway cost of one of your cars is a quarter million dollars.

BigGatorChris > Turd-Polisher 01/25/2014 at 16:41

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And building several models on the same frame and engine architecture doesn't?

BigGatorChris > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 16:43

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I'M SO CONFUSED!

Turd-Polisher > b33g33 01/25/2014 at 16:44

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Perhaps you're missing the point of my comment.... producing a 50k-70k dollar car would dilute McLaren's super car brand which slants towards really expensive to uber expensive. Just like producing a 50k dollar Lamborghini would do the same. Porsche has a lower price point across a majority of their line so I do not believe the Cayman dilutes their brand - nor do I particularly think Porsche's x-over line does either. They are not a super car manufacturer, but they do have some halo cars that extend into that price point.

Manuél Ferrari > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 17:16

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Awesome post!! A lot of well written content that I had not seen before.

Thanks for sharing this info.

Stradale > dekone 01/25/2014 at 17:27

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Oh thank you very much. I'm not too good with foreign currency.

Bricks > featherlite 01/25/2014 at 18:06

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I do believe that they also build up the engines, not just increase psi. but who knows, I could be wrong.

featherlite > Bricks 01/25/2014 at 19:01

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I'm sure they do use some stronger components, but does a stronger crank/connecting rod/whatever they might be doing really work out to twice the price of the 12C, like this 15C is projected to cost?

The engines are all based on the same "architecture", what exactly they define as "architecture" I don't know. But I clearly remember when McLaren engineers claimed they were upgrading the 12C with P1 developments to develop more power. Then McLaren called them back on that statement. Not to mention the 12C already had an upgrade to develop more power, and that didn't include any new parts just software. Sounds to me like that "base" 3.8 has a lot more left in it than they are letting on.
Link to that Jalopnik article.

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To me having 4 models that look different and are priced differently, but use the same chassis, engine, gearbox, etc is not really having 4 distinct models. That's just having different body styles of the same car.

Art > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 01/25/2014 at 20:20

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Can they build a McLaren for less than 100k where do I sign.

Xentron Holy Reaper of Worlds > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/25/2014 at 20:45

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How long have you been looking for a reasonable place to use that joke? XD

Hooneriphic > Benjinator12 01/25/2014 at 21:24

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I'm with you on the 12C. How many different 458's are there? Forget the P15 and create some new versions of the 12c.

Benjinator12 > Turd-Polisher 01/25/2014 at 21:31

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But if you want to get technical like that, McLaren isn't a "super car brand", they're a racing house, and them making road cars at all is diluting that image!

I think the way they see themselves is a modern company doing what Ferrari did when they were young- bringing hardcore racing technology to the masses. If they want to do that with parts they have laying about in the form of a sub $100k car, it can only be good for them. They haven't made a bad road car yet, and someone looking for something with a more pure sports-car focus than the Cayman would be hard pressed to find something else (except maybe the Alfa 4C).

sirlick > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/25/2014 at 23:12

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The P-N15

Laghairt Orga > Turd-Polisher 01/26/2014 at 01:38

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Does nobody remember that Mclaren used to tune mustangs back in the late 80's? You can pick those up for cheap now. Plus they were pretty good cars and way fun to drive.

Evan, Pope Of Jalopnik by Self-Appointment > carsandmusic 01/26/2014 at 01:48

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Yeah I feel like that's about right, although the F12 is front engined of course and this is likely to be mid-engined...maybe a P1 without the hybrid stuff, if you will. So, more of an Aventador and whatever-Porsche-is-calling-their-918-minus-the-hybrid-stuff competitor. Should be an interesting battle. Too bad Ferrari doesn't feel like making a "normal" mid-engine V12 car anymore.

MrBowles > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/26/2014 at 03:32

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Actually it will follow McLarens naming procedure just with a small change or two, it will be the MyP3-n15XX

Turd-Polisher > Laghairt Orga 01/26/2014 at 10:00

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You mean the 10 M81 mustang-based cars they built? Which were built before McLaren Cars was established? Or the junky ASC cars that they did some suspension work for and lent their name to? (The did almost no engineering work on these cars).

vdub_nut: scooter snob > Xentron Holy Reaper of Worlds 01/26/2014 at 12:14

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Literally about 15 minutes.

VeyronboyV1 > featherlite 01/26/2014 at 12:33

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Well considering how good the 12C and P1 reportedly are. Why would they spend millions into R&D just to create a completely "new" model?

Xentron Holy Reaper of Worlds > vdub_nut: scooter snob 01/26/2014 at 14:08

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That's a pretty long time with an attention span like mine.

Ginkei Garage Inc. > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 02/12/2014 at 09:24

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It appears that the final name won't be P15 but 650S, according to french press, via McLaren press department.

S1-Salon-de-Geneve-2014-La-McLaren-650S-en-mode-teasing-313076.jpg

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 02/12/2014 at 14:03

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I love McLaren, and I would by a 12C or an F1 in a heart-beat if I could even think of affording it...

(The P1... I agree with Jerry Seinfeld... not a looker, no matter how fast it may be, and for that money, it should be. I also agree with him... prefer the 918 Porsche.)

P15 capturing profits... at a more expensive price point than 12C already is? yeah, right... we'll see.

911 fighter... I hope they don't mean 911 Turbo S fighter... but I would rather see them offer a Cayman S fighter, down near $50K US dollars to start... but not very likely.

Frankly, it is all academic, because only the very rich will be able to afford one now, or in the future. I'll probably never even see one IRL, considering where I live.

Dream Crusher, a name suggested by steliosr32 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 02/12/2014 at 17:28

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As awesome as it would be, a manual transmission simply would not work. I sat in one and the foot wells are too narrow. You can literally only fit a gas pedal and a slim brake pedal.

Drakkon- Most Glorious and Upright Person of Genius > featherlite 02/12/2014 at 18:49

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I'm kind of actually in the same boat with you here. I was surprised that the P1 and 12C shared as much as they did and now they seem to be doing it more. I guess to some degree the formula work because the Aston Martin products share a lot more than good looks. It does keep development costs down, but I think it may end up robbing each of the products with some emotional 'kick' it they are all the same sausage as it were.

86it > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 02/16/2014 at 13:45

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SO FREAKING HAWT!!!!

Jon James > featherlite 02/16/2014 at 16:39

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Hasn't Ferrari been using the 6.3 in everything since the Enzo: 599 GTB, FF, 599 GTO, F12, and LaFerrari?

featherlite > Jon James 02/16/2014 at 17:04

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No, actually the 599 GTB and GTO, used a 5999 cc v12. Not the 6.3. The GTO used a further evolution of the "base" GTB engine. Also, the GTO and GTB were variants of the same model, not really two completely separate models like the 12C and P1. Now if you said LaFerrari and F12/FF, I'd be more likely to agree with you. Although each one does have a unique chassis; and even though the F12 and FF are both front engined, the FF is only available with AWD. Also the gap between the F12 and LaFerrari isn't nearly as large as the gap between the 12C and P1, much less the future P13 and P1. I mean the 12C is the equivalent of the 458 in model terms, and that has a completely different engine from the LaFerrari.

Sorry for the delay in response, been away on business for a while.

getchapopcorn > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 02/16/2014 at 19:53

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I thought projected pricing was more 120 USD and not GBP for the p13. Did I miss something? I thought it was going after the Carrera S/R8/GT-R market?

b33g33 > jubaru 04/25/2016 at 13:02

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If you keep complaining, they will name it the “MP15-19cOhSorryWeMeantP15OurBad”